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tea hey Marie Ora hang among up in a

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rail in a highway far irani tea Rama in

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a kurta Janie kurta tena koutou katoa

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speaking from an indigenous framework

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it's appropriate for me to greet the

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first people of this land to us and

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permission to speak to speak to your

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leadership

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and of course to your ancestors welcome

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everyone I'm Inga Inga Lambrecht I'm a

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consultant clinical psychologist at

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manoa Nui which is a Maori Mental Health

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Service in Auckland New Zealand it is

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government funded and it's where the

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paranormal is normal so let me give you

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just a bit of a cultural line-in of my

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own so that it may some of the slides

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will make sense I'm German but I also

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grew up in South Africa studied there

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and after my clinical program I did a

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PhD and I was a bit bored with

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psychology and I've told my professor

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look if it's not parapsychological I'm

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just not really interested in says well

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you know Mandela is just that the moment

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become president you might want to think

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about it they are just a bit more open

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at the moment so go for it which I did

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and I kind of looked at the sangoma

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trance states that are the shames of

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South Africa and gave cartography of the

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specific translates they enter as well

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as in conduction technologies etc so in

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14 years ago I came to New Zealand and

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I've been practicing it since then

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they're my areas of speciality are child

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adolescent Family Therapy trauma

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psychosis and personality disorders now

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for you to also understand is monotony

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because it's government-funded deals

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with the top 3% of

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the severity of clinical mental health

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disorders so the very severe not the

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worried well okay now I just wanted to

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give you some context so you visually

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have a sense of where I'm working this

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is the funny the motto anyway that's the

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holy sacred place and you'll see now why

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that matters that is the entrance that

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is inside over there you'll see some

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images of the ancestors this is where I

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run groups from mentalization groups to

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emotional regulation groups using the

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notion of gods now why does it matter to

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look at that building because this is

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the accepted model of Health for Maori

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it is quota for atop afar the house of

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well-being and it includes your physical

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health Tanana your psychological health

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your family health and your spiritual

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health Huayra and this is where clinical

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parapsychology fits in so this talk

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today is about how parapsychology fits

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into the clinical realm and how it is

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applied today so why are what does it

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mean beautifully stated it is made out

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of two aspects Y means the unique and

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special Lua is the bits or the container

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so what it means is it's that part of

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you which is both unique and special

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that contains the most unique abyss

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within you now that's quite exquisite

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because if you just go cross-culturally

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at the moment this is equal to complex

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definitions of Advaita Vedanta of

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Buddhist nirvana of the negative path of

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meister eckhart to the iron so far of

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different to maybe other traditions in

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the white services which is often very

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psychiatrically based very biologically

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based why are we all the if you wish the

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parapsychological part is not at the

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edge so when Larry Dossey spoke about

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whether there is a soul at matter when

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do we go

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new will there be you know it is the

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center of our work rather than at the

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edge and today what I want to talk to

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you a bit about are actually the overlap

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of distress and parapsychological

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features and psychic events and how do

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we separate this out because in many

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cultures this is an acceptable

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understanding that distress and

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parapsychological events come together

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not only but that's one way it is

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expressed so from my own experiences in

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South Africa how do you distinguish

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between a muffle from Jana and ocut wasa

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those are two specific illnesses that if

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you were psychiatrist would look simply

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like schizophrenia psychosis people are

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hearing voices

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they're hear vicious internalized

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expressions of demons attacking them

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they withdraw from society they have

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very powerful experiences of shaking

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they feel devastated they are isolated

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and I saw somebody actually coming to my

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teacher within with chains because they

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could not contain him now so in the

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Western world they would not be able to

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distinguish between these two what you

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would now call culture-bound syndrome a

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mouthful for Jana is considered in a

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spirit possession about voices attacking

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the individual an individual needs to be

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freed but by these voices who I saw

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it's higher than initiation illness

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requiring shamanic training and how do

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you separate the truth not so easy

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by the way that foot is the foot of my

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teacher blesses cotton socks or moist

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nylon socks and this is one way that the

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shaman's actually differentiate between

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coat was a number for Nia namely through

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divination it's an interesting tool

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because it is considered that Amma for

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fun jana is truly the voices would be

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alien to the person are not helpful

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you could also say the morning but i'm a

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bucket wasa you are hounded by your own

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ancestors who want you to become a

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healer and because we generally don't

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want to grab you shake you and throw you

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into the healing path and you the

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now you show up heard of the look of

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model look off is somebody who's really

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interested in this area he himself has

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suffered from and bipolar disorder and

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as your way he proposes that the notion

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of distress and mystical states is a

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complex one defined by overlaps and if

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you wish that the central overlap would

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be way distress and psychic events can

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overlap by the way they are no such

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things as schizophrenic s--

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there are people who suffer from

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schizophrenia okay i just wanted to kind

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of help you with that a bit because we

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don't say people with diabetes or derp

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it assists you know we actually would

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allow people have in my view psychosis

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or schizophrenia is actually not at the

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state of consciousness might be a

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pathological one might be a painful one

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but we're not totally defined by altered

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states of consciousness and people with

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psychosis have also other states healthy

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states

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so these are some of the spiritual

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emergencies that I've worked with and

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I'll be talking about some of them the

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Kundalini syndrome you know Qigong

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psychosis will go to as I discussed and

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we will discuss some of them below the

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matter mari is acceptance in Maori

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culture of illnesses that have psychic

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events maybe attach them but how do we

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distinguish them how do we say this is

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actually wider or psychic events and

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this is actually madness how do we do

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this sounds all lovely on paper and I

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have often seen how people have been

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misdiagnosed pharmacologically repressed

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who often it's put into inpatient unit

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when in fact they were hearing the

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voices of ancestors but within a Western

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model that's all hallucination hence you

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are mad so one way to think a bit about

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this to create some form of clarity I've

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suggested a continuum of voice hearing

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notice I'm going for the phenomena

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rather than for the category because I

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wish I could take you Paras are called

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psychological scientists and take you

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into the pharmacological area you

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wouldn't believe the bad research that's

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going on there if you struggling hear

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about some p-values you need to see the

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poor conceptual validity and the

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pathetic

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research that's done there ah anyway

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anything I can talk about but really one

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way to think about voice hearing is that

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there are people who are struggling with

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severe and profound and very difficult

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painful voices often based on trauma

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neglect and abuse what's less well known

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is the research on people who hear

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voices and the population that they that

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are not distressing and it's up to 15%

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the research hasn't sorted that out he

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ated so between 3 and 15% usually 6

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percent this is less taboo nowadays only

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recently in the last maybe 10 years tapu

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by the word as a Maori word as you know

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to move it comes from the Polynesian

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area

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what still taboo in in mental health is

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the mastery of these voices and my

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suggestion is that this occurs on a

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continuum from the painful voices to the

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mastery of the voices that you can

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experience in shamanic training

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elsewhere so what's the clinical differ

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that relevance here well the difference

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between the mystic and the personal

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psychosis is that a mystic knows who not

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to talk to this is exceptionally

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important now let's move over to Tujunga

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are the shaman's of the Maori tradition

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and if you wish they'd see mental health

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as the fliction between the living and

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their ancestors which is not really that

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different than any genetic psych

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analytic or attachment theories of

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mental health this is a small issue of

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death but yeah between friends why would

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that matter Sertoma are the experts in a

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way I'd like to say though they're

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experts in altered states of conscience

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to use terms that Dean Radin says the

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Olympic athletes of this capacity and it

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takes training the share the Tonga would

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train up to six years you've got your

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PhDs and six or more years they do their

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training in six or seven years and had

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to go through several tests this is not

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a fuzzy little transpersonal experience

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that they go through they become experts

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in this area that doesn't mean that they

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don't stumble their times now

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I would also like to say that amongst

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the indigenous people it doesn't mean

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there's a blind acceptance of psychic

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phenomena I'll give you a little example

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of shamanic skepticism that I

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experienced I I don't have time to tell

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you about my three day graduation I

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decided not to do it in a Township but I

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decided to go into the bush most of the

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Kruger National Park and you don't sleep

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much in those days and of course sleep

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deprivation helps you to get into

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altered states but one of the things you

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need to do is to find an object that

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they hide and what they do is of course

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a they don't tell you but also they'll

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tell your teacher because he'd be you

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know he's great interest in you

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succeeding they don't let others know as

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well so the person who you have to

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identify who the person is who hides it

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as well so they have various ways of

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trying to establish a double blind they

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seek to establish validity and

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reliability by scattering who hides what

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now in front of an audience you go into

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a trance state and the trance states

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that the design goals usually go into is

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is based on heavy drumming and you dance

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00:14:16,930 --> 00:14:15,170
incredibly intensely and you open you

274
00:14:18,340 --> 00:14:16,940
open yourself up and you you help you

275
00:14:22,329 --> 00:14:18,350
hope like hell that you get the right

276
00:14:24,519 --> 00:14:22,339
information because and here's

277
00:14:27,009 --> 00:14:24,529
interesting this is their test if you do

278
00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:27,019
not find the object you're not worthy of

279
00:14:30,910 --> 00:14:28,160
becoming a sangoma

280
00:14:34,710 --> 00:14:30,920
so no pressure it's in front of the

281
00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:34,720
whole community of the village well I

282
00:14:40,420 --> 00:14:38,000
was fortunate enough to find it and you

283
00:14:43,540 --> 00:14:40,430
know what I liked about the last at the

284
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:43,550
movie last night my holy moment was

285
00:14:50,379 --> 00:14:47,930
when I found those beads that were

286
00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:50,389
hidden in a hut in a calabash at the

287
00:14:54,910 --> 00:14:52,910
door so and you're not allowed to guess

288
00:14:56,230 --> 00:14:54,920
you have to go there and find it exactly

289
00:14:59,110 --> 00:14:56,240
all you have to trance

290
00:15:02,350 --> 00:14:59,120
this is no well could it be possibly on

291
00:15:04,569 --> 00:15:02,360
the left side you've got to go there now

292
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:04,579
here's the here came the crunch point I

293
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:05,810
was relieved

294
00:15:10,030 --> 00:15:08,330
because this was my carer well you know

295
00:15:11,950 --> 00:15:10,040
that's based as parapsychology doing

296
00:15:15,540 --> 00:15:11,960
something like this in front of everyone

297
00:15:17,590 --> 00:15:15,550
it's not going to let you go lightly so

298
00:15:19,420 --> 00:15:17,600
they said well they don't believe a

299
00:15:24,940 --> 00:15:19,430
white man can do that so I had to do it

300
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:24,950
again I was furious but that was much

301
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:28,490
more because of my anxiety so one of the

302
00:15:35,769 --> 00:15:31,490
discernments I want to address is that

303
00:15:39,310 --> 00:15:35,779
you have reductionist and elevation

304
00:15:42,220 --> 00:15:39,320
estera people who do not see any value

305
00:15:44,590 --> 00:15:42,230
in the overlap and also those who

306
00:15:46,829 --> 00:15:44,600
actually see everything as spiritual

307
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:46,839
that is a really questionable thing

308
00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:49,970
there is also the pre trance of fallacy

309
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:51,890
where everything is seen as your

310
00:15:57,730 --> 00:15:53,810
childhood experiences or everything is

311
00:16:00,370 --> 00:15:57,740
seen as transpersonal I will end with

312
00:16:03,730 --> 00:16:00,380
this I wouldn't have time to go into

313
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:03,740
clinical vignettes one another way I'd

314
00:16:10,020 --> 00:16:05,890
like to present to you the overlap of

315
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:10,030
parapsychological events and and

316
00:16:19,420 --> 00:16:16,490
distress is that it's a dialectic there

317
00:16:22,210 --> 00:16:19,430
are some who hold and I've heard many of

318
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:22,220
them that they distress a spiritual my

319
00:16:27,310 --> 00:16:25,970
voices are God I'm hearing I can hear

320
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:27,320
you hear my thoughts

321
00:16:32,829 --> 00:16:29,410
the CIA is listening to my thoughts

322
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:32,839
there are others the size of ours

323
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:36,170
difference you know that distress has

324
00:16:43,660 --> 00:16:38,690
nothing to do with any psychic capacity

325
00:16:46,990 --> 00:16:43,670
or spirituality and I propose a kind of

326
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:47,000
synthesis namely is a developmental

327
00:16:51,699 --> 00:16:49,250
stage in which distress and

328
00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:51,709
parapsychological events overlap but

329
00:16:57,510 --> 00:16:54,560
through the process of training you

330
00:17:01,329 --> 00:16:57,520
reach into mastered altered states and

331
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:01,339
in that way it is possible maybe to

332
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:02,690
create a synthesis of these two

333
00:17:10,390 --> 00:17:06,410
positions here are some of the common

334
00:17:12,250 --> 00:17:10,400
clinical parapsychological stories just

335
00:17:16,660 --> 00:17:12,260
take your eyes over it I haven't got

336
00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:16,670
time to go into it and I'm going to skip

337
00:17:20,999 --> 00:17:18,049
some of this

338
00:17:24,369 --> 00:17:21,009
some of the-- repeat goals are

339
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:24,379
normalization and validation I think

340
00:17:27,789 --> 00:17:26,089
it's incredibly important in your work

341
00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:27,799
with people to create self an effect

342
00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:30,129
regulation which leads to integration

343
00:17:36,220 --> 00:17:33,529
transformation and I want to invert the

344
00:17:38,619 --> 00:17:36,230
spiritual political factors I'll tell

345
00:17:40,779 --> 00:17:38,629
you a little story I was working with

346
00:17:42,549 --> 00:17:40,789
somebody where I could see the ancestors

347
00:17:45,159 --> 00:17:42,559
in the room and she just looked at me

348
00:17:47,549 --> 00:17:45,169
bug died because she was a Maori person

349
00:17:50,049 --> 00:17:47,559
after nine months severe complex PTSD

350
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:50,059
she had started opening up that she can

351
00:17:54,940 --> 00:17:52,210
see people walking through bus station

352
00:17:57,970 --> 00:17:54,950
okay so what what are you gonna do with

353
00:18:00,820 --> 00:17:57,980
us but anyway one of the things I say to

354
00:18:02,470 --> 00:18:00,830
look I've got a no problem because as as

355
00:18:04,419 --> 00:18:02,480
a psychologist I have to write notes in

356
00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:04,429
the computer program of the hospital how

357
00:18:09,190 --> 00:18:06,320
do I write about this that you saw

358
00:18:12,999 --> 00:18:09,200
people walking through buses so we

359
00:18:15,009 --> 00:18:13,009
decided to say you know we were working

360
00:18:17,529 --> 00:18:15,019
on anomalous experiences and used the

361
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:17,539
stress tolerance to regulate the effect

362
00:18:24,430 --> 00:18:20,570
due to unusual phenomena some nonsense

363
00:18:27,009 --> 00:18:24,440
like that and some DBT language so I

364
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:27,019
also advised her very strongly to be

365
00:18:32,649 --> 00:18:30,369
wise with whom she talks about this

366
00:18:36,820 --> 00:18:32,659
because if she talks to some white

367
00:18:41,919 --> 00:18:36,830
psychiatrists not all but some she'll be

368
00:18:48,159 --> 00:18:41,929
medicated out of her mind so why does it

369
00:18:50,139 --> 00:18:48,169
matter you know this and I get so bored

370
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:50,149
with psychology it's still in the 19th

371
00:18:55,090 --> 00:18:52,330
century I can assure you it is shocking

372
00:18:58,509 --> 00:18:55,100
but it redefines who we are if we take

373
00:19:02,609 --> 00:18:58,519
clinical parapsychology seriously so

374
00:19:07,330 --> 00:19:02,619
I'll end with her with a saying in Mari

375
00:19:10,749 --> 00:19:07,340
Caputi rueake Hui tyranny tahi I hope as

376
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:10,759
the old myths of psychology wither that

377
00:19:16,450 --> 00:19:13,129
another one is remade with more space

378
00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:16,460
for parapsychology cura thank you very

379
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:17,840
much

380
00:19:28,270 --> 00:19:26,410
[Applause]

381
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:28,280
wonderful so it looks like we have about

382
00:19:34,530 --> 00:19:30,050
eleven ten or eleven minutes for

383
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:34,540
questions in choice you talk very much I

384
00:19:41,470 --> 00:19:37,810
would like to I have some training in

385
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:41,480
transpersonal hypnotherapy and also we

386
00:19:46,690 --> 00:19:43,730
dealt with entities when we acknowledge

387
00:19:48,820 --> 00:19:46,700
that soul and we know that not all souls

388
00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:48,830
go on very easily how much does that

389
00:19:54,010 --> 00:19:52,400
show up in your work with people and

390
00:19:59,980 --> 00:19:54,020
when you have to help do him to be

391
00:20:01,900 --> 00:19:59,990
removal the good thing is about doing a

392
00:20:03,670 --> 00:20:01,910
talk in another country you can confess

393
00:20:09,910 --> 00:20:03,680
to things you can't do in your knowledge

394
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:09,920
in your country within the tradition

395
00:20:15,370 --> 00:20:11,930
that would be absolutely acceptable and

396
00:20:18,070 --> 00:20:15,380
that entity removal is something that

397
00:20:20,980 --> 00:20:18,080
indeed happens and it happens in this

398
00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:20,990
sense of karakia and i sometimes go with

399
00:20:26,530 --> 00:20:24,080
the kamati which is an elder and we do

400
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:26,540
some removal of entities in certain

401
00:20:36,100 --> 00:20:30,530
places as well okay also with people yes

402
00:20:38,350 --> 00:20:36,110
we do so that is something that all do

403
00:20:39,460 --> 00:20:38,360
differently open to then I have another

404
00:20:42,250 --> 00:20:39,470
one where again

405
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:42,260
how about past life drama does that show

406
00:20:46,540 --> 00:20:44,690
up its shown up in my other work that

407
00:20:48,670 --> 00:20:46,550
I've done I've done some I'm a clinical

408
00:20:51,130 --> 00:20:48,680
hypnotherapist so we've done some yes

409
00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:51,140
I've I definitely see it but within the

410
00:21:00,640 --> 00:20:53,600
model that I'm working with a Maori it

411
00:21:03,580 --> 00:21:00,650
is not such a relevant way of thinking

412
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:03,590
so I'm very careful to respect the

413
00:21:10,810 --> 00:21:07,450
cultural space within which I'm working

414
00:21:14,470 --> 00:21:10,820
but with others I definitely have work

415
00:21:16,810 --> 00:21:14,480
with past life regressions seen some

416
00:21:18,910 --> 00:21:16,820
phenomenal changes from physical changes

417
00:21:22,150 --> 00:21:18,920
in their body from holding long

418
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:22,160
illnesses to therapeutic releases of

419
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:24,770
trauma and the trauma of past lives

420
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:28,730
without doubt seems to in - thing have

421
00:21:34,460 --> 00:21:29,970
some effect on us today

422
00:21:37,279 --> 00:21:34,470
thank you yeah I just wanted to

423
00:21:39,950 --> 00:21:37,289
recommend a colleague of mine who's a

424
00:21:42,460 --> 00:21:39,960
British psychologist I think well

425
00:21:46,730 --> 00:21:42,470
established Richard Bentley don't if you

426
00:21:49,399 --> 00:21:46,740
yes just he is a possible breach to

427
00:21:51,889 --> 00:21:49,409
normal sort of clinical psychology since

428
00:21:53,930 --> 00:21:51,899
he I think he is very open to

429
00:21:56,299 --> 00:21:53,940
parapsychological research on mystical

430
00:22:00,259 --> 00:21:56,309
experiences it's you wrote a nice paper

431
00:22:03,169 --> 00:22:00,269
on it and yes I know him through my work

432
00:22:06,019 --> 00:22:03,179
in psychosis I'm on the International

433
00:22:09,049 --> 00:22:06,029
Committee of ICPs and he is involved

434
00:22:11,930 --> 00:22:09,059
with that answer research yes sir thank

435
00:22:14,299 --> 00:22:11,940
you and that is books doctoring the mind

436
00:22:16,519 --> 00:22:14,309
understanding Magnus was made a big

437
00:22:18,919 --> 00:22:16,529
impact that's indeed true thank you for

438
00:22:21,019 --> 00:22:18,929
that yes I suggest if you want to have a

439
00:22:24,379 --> 00:22:21,029
different view and gets a freer richer

440
00:22:26,180 --> 00:22:24,389
Bentall as your guy so two questions one

441
00:22:28,279 --> 00:22:26,190
did you find the bead of the second time

442
00:22:30,470 --> 00:22:28,289
sorry did you find the beads the second

443
00:22:32,889 --> 00:22:30,480
oh no they were much less scheme much

444
00:22:35,919 --> 00:22:32,899
better they put herbes in a piece of

445
00:22:39,230 --> 00:22:35,929
wrap them up in newspaper and dug a hole

446
00:22:43,220 --> 00:22:39,240
somewhere on the ground they really made

447
00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:43,230
a difficult so I didn't hit exactly the

448
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:45,360
right spot I was a bit off like that and

449
00:22:49,999 --> 00:22:48,090
I dug there and they said not to go back

450
00:22:53,029 --> 00:22:50,009
so I didn't mind a second trance state

451
00:22:56,090 --> 00:22:53,039
and then I found the little squid was

452
00:22:58,220 --> 00:22:56,100
this big that they hit on a I don't know

453
00:23:02,180 --> 00:22:58,230
a place as big as this some way in the

454
00:23:03,470 --> 00:23:02,190
ground and the second question is and I

455
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:03,480
would totally understand if the answer

456
00:23:08,169 --> 00:23:05,490
is no but here it is is there an

457
00:23:11,659 --> 00:23:08,179
experiment that you could think of that

458
00:23:14,450 --> 00:23:11,669
you would allow an external you know

459
00:23:16,310 --> 00:23:14,460
Western experimenter to come and do in

460
00:23:18,860 --> 00:23:16,320
your environment and if so what's the

461
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:18,870
best experiment that you feel is most

462
00:23:25,610 --> 00:23:21,690
exciting yes I was worried that I don't

463
00:23:29,289 --> 00:23:25,620
have any p-values in my talk be

464
00:23:33,999 --> 00:23:29,299
concerned whether this would fly you

465
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:34,009
know it's a good question because I

466
00:23:41,630 --> 00:23:38,250
would struggle to say what experiment

467
00:23:46,050 --> 00:23:44,310
it's similar to in work sometimes done

468
00:23:48,690 --> 00:23:46,060
in neuropsychology that you only have

469
00:23:51,290 --> 00:23:48,700
one patient to work with so if you

470
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:51,300
prepare to think about a research design

471
00:23:58,050 --> 00:23:55,090
that only includes one person then maybe

472
00:24:01,200 --> 00:23:58,060
yes so I didn't present something here

473
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:01,210
where somebody didn't have time with two

474
00:24:06,180 --> 00:24:04,210
weeks ago meet somebody who came to me

475
00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:06,190
severely depressed in Oakland they know

476
00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:07,840
that I'm a bit weird so they send all

477
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:09,130
these people they don't know what to do

478
00:24:15,330 --> 00:24:13,210
with so she heard voices that told her

479
00:24:17,940 --> 00:24:15,340
her brother was going to be in a car

480
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:17,950
accident in Mission Bay and it happened

481
00:24:21,660 --> 00:24:19,330
and she wanted to know which other

482
00:24:24,180 --> 00:24:21,670
voices are vicious and negative and they

483
00:24:25,770 --> 00:24:24,190
were depression which are if you can

484
00:24:27,930 --> 00:24:25,780
think of a research design that includes

485
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:27,940
one person as they do in your psychology

486
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:34,810
why wouldn't that fly sounds good um I'd

487
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:37,810
like to recommend a what I think is an

488
00:24:43,530 --> 00:24:40,480
excellent book on related topics it's by

489
00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:43,540
someone named water waters titled crazy

490
00:24:49,620 --> 00:24:47,710
like us which discusses how as part of

491
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:49,630
the process of globalization and a

492
00:24:54,150 --> 00:24:51,250
sincere effort to help people we're

493
00:24:56,580 --> 00:24:54,160
busily exporting Western psychiatric

494
00:24:58,980 --> 00:24:56,590
definitions and Western psychiatric

495
00:25:03,810 --> 00:24:58,990
treatments to all the rest of the world

496
00:25:06,060 --> 00:25:03,820
and having heard you comment on how you

497
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:06,070
found para sacar how you found

498
00:25:10,460 --> 00:25:08,410
mainstream psychology boring and and

499
00:25:15,450 --> 00:25:10,470
still rooted in the 19th century and all

500
00:25:20,370 --> 00:25:15,460
do you have any prescriptions to or

501
00:25:23,490 --> 00:25:20,380
advice for trying to stop the mainstream

502
00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:23,500
expansion from drowning the whole world

503
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:28,960
in haloperidol well I can only tell you

504
00:25:32,430 --> 00:25:30,970
this as I'm part of International

505
00:25:35,670 --> 00:25:32,440
Committee on ice Pearce was a

506
00:25:37,470 --> 00:25:35,680
psychological approaches to this I do

507
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:37,480
need to say some their mental health and

508
00:25:42,030 --> 00:25:39,730
indigenous people you cannot think about

509
00:25:43,740 --> 00:25:42,040
the parapsychological a sacred without

510
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:43,750
notions of colonization

511
00:25:48,110 --> 00:25:45,970
intergenerational trauma and the

512
00:25:50,930 --> 00:25:48,120
ruthless destruction of the

513
00:25:52,490 --> 00:25:50,940
people how would you think your mental

514
00:25:54,950 --> 00:25:52,500
health would look like if you have

515
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:54,960
generations of trauma running through

516
00:25:59,840 --> 00:25:57,330
you we're now beginning to accept in the

517
00:26:02,600 --> 00:25:59,850
Holocaust that the generations following

518
00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:02,610
those that survived it are deeply

519
00:26:09,470 --> 00:26:05,940
affected by it what's not acceptance

520
00:26:11,990 --> 00:26:09,480
psychology the amount of poverty has an

521
00:26:14,030 --> 00:26:12,000
effect on mental health and that is

522
00:26:15,890 --> 00:26:14,040
something we need to do so thank you

523
00:26:18,530 --> 00:26:15,900
very much for that question it was very

524
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:18,540
important to me so what I'm trying to do

525
00:26:24,380 --> 00:26:20,610
there and it is funny that the white guy

526
00:26:27,170 --> 00:26:24,390
is pushing for much more culture are you

527
00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:27,180
looking at removing a psychiatrist as

528
00:26:33,500 --> 00:26:31,110
the center from the work to if re being

529
00:26:35,930 --> 00:26:33,510
the work the building the sacred space

530
00:26:38,150 --> 00:26:35,940
and that we work within that and we

531
00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:38,160
bring in that much more in so yes they

532
00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:40,110
are small if it's even in this country

533
00:26:43,910 --> 00:26:42,240
I'm very curious about how the

534
00:26:46,370 --> 00:26:43,920
indigenous people in this country they

535
00:26:48,770 --> 00:26:46,380
have some interesting programs that's

536
00:26:50,540 --> 00:26:48,780
what we need to push so thank you very

537
00:26:57,290 --> 00:26:50,550
much for that question

538
00:26:59,000 --> 00:26:57,300
much appreciate thank you hi thank you

539
00:27:01,070 --> 00:26:59,010
that was a wonderful talk I'm just

540
00:27:02,630 --> 00:27:01,080
wondering when someone is determined to

541
00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:02,640
be suffering from a demonic possession

542
00:27:06,410 --> 00:27:04,350
as opposed to initiation what kind of

543
00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:06,420
protocols are used to deal with that and

544
00:27:13,130 --> 00:27:08,400
what have you seen the effectiveness to

545
00:27:15,650 --> 00:27:13,140
be like again it depends on which

546
00:27:17,420 --> 00:27:15,660
cultural frame a cue in and I and I

547
00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:17,430
think it's exceptionally important to

548
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:21,600
respect that the thing is to check out

549
00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:24,210
what the voices are who the voices are

550
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:26,310
and that is done different ways in

551
00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:29,610
different cultures some healers can see

552
00:27:36,050 --> 00:27:32,640
others use divination if they are the

553
00:27:38,030 --> 00:27:36,060
ancestors pushing you hard like I'm not

554
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:38,040
an easy therapist my clients they're

555
00:27:43,250 --> 00:27:40,410
lucky to survive me you know so that's

556
00:27:45,170 --> 00:27:43,260
equally like the ancestors take you and

557
00:27:48,770 --> 00:27:45,180
push you into the pain and it's the

558
00:27:51,860 --> 00:27:48,780
notion of struggling through the pain to

559
00:27:55,490 --> 00:27:51,870
seek transformation the domani position

560
00:27:57,390 --> 00:27:55,500
is not the same it is it requires

561
00:27:58,890 --> 00:27:57,400
freedom from it so

562
00:28:01,200 --> 00:27:58,900
different frameworks have will have

563
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:01,210
different methods and respecting that

564
00:28:05,700 --> 00:28:03,970
would be important to me but amongst the

565
00:28:09,290 --> 00:28:05,710
South Africans and Gomez and the two

566
00:28:11,610 --> 00:28:09,300
homers in it it would be about then

567
00:28:16,950 --> 00:28:11,620
there are different techniques of doing

568
00:28:19,770 --> 00:28:16,960
it so for example is using the the power

569
00:28:22,980 --> 00:28:19,780
of the sangoma to frame to call on the

570
00:28:25,290 --> 00:28:22,990
ancestors of that person to to to

571
00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:25,300
strengthen the person against the demons

572
00:28:31,230 --> 00:28:28,320
to look at also their lifestyle

573
00:28:33,330 --> 00:28:31,240
substance use you know eating habits all

574
00:28:35,250 --> 00:28:33,340
of that actually happens so my son coma

575
00:28:38,370 --> 00:28:35,260
teacher would take people suckers into

576
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:38,380
his home and live with and have them

577
00:28:42,180 --> 00:28:40,690
live with him for six nine months this

578
00:28:43,530 --> 00:28:42,190
is not so different what's happening in

579
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:43,540
Sweden there is something called the

580
00:28:48,420 --> 00:28:46,090
Family Foundation which also takes

581
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:48,430
people into the homes and it makes a

582
00:28:53,910 --> 00:28:50,650
profound difference because wouldn't you

583
00:28:56,550 --> 00:28:53,920
feel different if you live in a family

584
00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:56,560
situation than just out on the streets

585
00:29:03,510 --> 00:29:00,240
as happens a lot Ian's and I know in aus

586
00:29:06,590 --> 00:29:03,520
so thank you for that and can I just say

587
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:06,600
thank you to Stanley Crippler who

588
00:29:11,970 --> 00:29:10,330
Stanley Stanley I just want to say thank

589
00:29:14,820 --> 00:29:11,980
you for your writings they've been

590
00:29:17,450 --> 00:29:14,830
really important for my PhD well can you

591
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:17,460
put them to good use